Consumer Rights Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Main Page

2025-09-16T14:09:01Z

Edisondotme: /* Suggestion: Consumer Rights Wins */ Reply

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{{Archives}}

==stating "Recently updated" not particularly helpful==

On [https://consumerrights.wiki/index.php?title=Special:CreateAccount&returnto=Special%3ARecentChanges| the "create account" page], near the bottom, it says, "We have recently updated our privacy policy." How recently? It doesn't say. The logical assumption which must be made is that it has changed seconds ago, and must be reread. How about instead displaying something along the lines of, "Our privacy policy was last updated on <date>", even if there does not exist a way to automate the display of the date, and the "create account" page (or the page of any other such notice) must be edited by hand?

:this is valid, and we'll try and get it fixed shortly [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 08:29, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
==Dependence on phone app for basic functions, make an article?==

I'm on Frontier internet, only gig around and I think they know it. We got fiber a few years ago and if you want wi-fi you either go with the Amazon Eeros(?) or learn how to do your own router. The Eeros seems that you can only access settings with a phone app, no desktop. Would this qualify it for an article on here? I've also heard about sleezy back door things happening either from Amazon or the IP itself, that they can access settings the customer cannot. Anyhow I don't want to just go ahead and write some poorly put together article and it shouldn't even be on here. [[User:Sawbones|Sawbones]] ([[User talk:Sawbones|talk]]) 17:57, 14 August 2025 (UTC)

:This probably depends on the level of coverage. have there been any news articles (local or otherwise) which are complaining about this? Forcing the customer to use unneccesarily invasive software to access a service is something which definitely fits within the wiki's scope, and anything which is happening across a whole ISP would be large-scale enough, but the final thing an article needs is good sources [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 08:27, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:I'm noticing a double standard of "pc app dependence" being ok and "phone app" dependency being less than ok. I believe that mobile devices should be equally capable as desktop devices, especially when you put windows and android tablets side by side.
:There are both cases of "companion software"<sup>1</sup> getting obsolete on their respective platform for one reason or another. Despite outnumbering desktop devices, I noted : shorter device lifespan, faster software obsolescence cycle (think [https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/256364/app-not-installed-as-app-isnt-compatible-with-your-phone-when-installing-apks android 14]), difficulty of support on different hardware, exposure to phenomenal amounts of user data, (not getting treated seriously?).
:Over-reliance on companion software for product operation or basic features access is present on both desktop and mobile.
:<sup>1</sup>Companion software - gives convenient access or expands features of a hardware or software product. Examples include Microtik WinBox, Eero, etc...
:p.s. I'm not aware of any existing term describing something you'd download to use something, but "companion software" seems alright. Actually now that I think about it, drivers and libraries are a kind of companion software too. [[User:Yappermaster69|Yappermaster69]] ([[User talk:Yappermaster69|talk]]) 18:55, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

==Cruzaders kings 2 incident.==

Hi everyone, as a fan of Paradox games and somebody that really wants to write in this wiki i wanted to ask something... what right exactly the paradox incident covers? i want to do it, but i dont understand quite exactly what i should do at writting it, why its an anti ownership or anti consumer practice, i need to understand that first to start it, because if i dont recognize well the systematic issue i think that i cannot treat it. [[User:Predatitor41|Predatitor41]] ([[User talk:Predatitor41|talk]]) 01:26, 15 August 2025 (UTC)

:I think I see the one you mean on the article suggestions. I'm honeslt not sure why it should be there either, it doesn't seem to fit. They sell a lot of DLC and it's quite expensive, but there's nothing particularly deceptive going on there from what I can tell. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 08:29, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
::It looks like it was eliminated of suggestion articles, i dont know why but it looks like it was discarded. [[User:Predatitor41|Predatitor41]] ([[User talk:Predatitor41|talk]]) 14:44, 15 August 2025 (UTC)
:::I removed it for reasons stated previously - it (at least the way it was phrased in the entry) did not seem like something which would fit on the wiki [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 14:48, 15 August 2025 (UTC)

==Replace PrivacyTools.io with PrivacyGuides==

As per PrivacyGuides FAQ page https://www.privacyguides.org/en/about/privacytools/

"In September 2021, every active contributor unanimously agreed to move from PrivacyTools to work on this site: Privacy Guides. This decision was made because PrivacyTools’ founder and controller of the domain name had disappeared for an extended period of time and could not be contacted.

Having built a reputable site and set of services on PrivacyTools.io, this caused grave concerns for the future of PrivacyTools, as any future disruption could wipe out the entire organization with no recovery method. This transition was communicated to the PrivacyTools community many months in advance via a variety of channels including its blog, Twitter, Reddit, and Mastodon to ensure the entire process went as smoothly as possible. We did this to ensure nobody was kept in the dark, which has been our modus operandi since our team was created, and to make sure Privacy Guides was recognized as the same reliable organization that PrivacyTools was before the transition.

After the organizational move was completed, the founder of PrivacyTools returned and began to spread misinformation about the Privacy Guides project. They continue to spread misinformation in addition to operating a paid link farm on the PrivacyTools domain. We are creating this page to clear up any misconceptions."

The current PrivacyTools.io site has obvious but undisclosed sponsored promotions of Nord Security products (NordVPN, Surfshark, Incogni) and maybe others as well. The events that transpired that led to the forming of PrivacyGuides are verifiable through searching community posts at the time and other sources. For those that remember the "leading" members of PrivacyTools at the time (Jonah Aragon, Daniel Gray, Niek-de-Wilde, freddy...), all of them were the ones who made PrivacyGuides and moved along with the whole community. Their forum and other channels are filled with community discussion and all recommendation additions and removals are debated in public as was the case with PrivacyTools in the past. Meanwhile today PrivacyTools.io doesn't even have an "About" page or anything,and while there is a Github page linked on the site, there doesn't seem to be a way to actually contribute (https://github.com/privacytoolsIO/privacy-tools/discussions/18).

==Addition of NOYB.eu to the Consumer Tools section==

Suggestion to add https://noyb.eu/en to one of the subsections of the Consumer Tools sections. Possibly in the "Legal & complaint filing" subsection. It's a non-profit, specifically about data privacy and protection within the EU. [[User:Socks|Socks]] ([[User talk:Socks|talk]]) 17:05, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

==Need to confer with Champion Power Equipment employees==

I'm a small engine mechanic and I'm going to start a post about the dual fuel generators they produce. They are flawed regardless of intentions, and would like exact specs if anyone has that information, Mainly need the cylinder, and piston specs as well as the dry fuel ratio.

The case is a denied warranty for one of our customers that I'm sure has to be a common issue with this design.

I plan to research online but It would be faster to have people who have direct access to the information, We were and still are a warranty center for them but one of champion's employees insulted us and our competence on the case I'm referring to, and we haven't gotten any contact from champion since so not really in the situation to reach out for information that they'd most likely deny or ignore us on.

If anyone on here is an employee in their parts department, or a similar department with access to publicly known part numbers and specs please reach out, the small engine industry is a problem lately that's only getting worse. It would be nice to document issues that arise It would also be nice to have someone with engineering experience and credentials to verify data and calculate it themselves, especially in the gas powered equipment sector/industry [[User:The Wang|The Wang]] ([[User talk:The Wang|talk]]) 20:20, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

==Will this wiki publish regular backups?==

The Wikimedia Foundation regularly publishes [https://dumps.wikimedia.org/ compressed archives] of its wikis. This sets an example I wish every website with text-based user-generated contributions would follow. It is important to preserve the contribution history should this site go offline. Besides, text is well compressable.

Many websites in the past have shut down with little to no warning, resulting in the loss of years of volunteer contributions. We need to pre-empt this.

<blockquote>
Issue: No Backup, No Distribution
For reasons and examples stated in this article, any centralized web-based service will go offline some day. Some sooner, some later. Popularity is not even a guarantee that a service gets continued
</blockquote>

Source: [https://karl-voit.at/2020/10/23/avoid-web-forums/ Karl Voit].

[[User:Elominius|Elominius]] ([[User talk:Elominius|talk]]) 03:59, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

==Suggestion: install view counters==

Please install [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HitCounters HitCounters] for MediaWiki. This extension shows the view counts an article is getting. It would be nice to see it. [[User:Elominius|Elominius]] ([[User talk:Elominius|talk]]) 08:15, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

==Hi, I am new here!==

So I was wondering about the overall things of the consumer wiki by Louis Rossman (Apologies if I get the name wrong), and so I decided to join on the bandwagon. But I do have a question: Why is this wiki centered around the US? I live in a different continent, predominately, Europe. I do have a reason since most of which the "Consumer Tools" is centered around the US, such as the Better Business Bureau, FDA, and others. Since my homeland doesn't exactly have those said agencies like you guys do, and that is what I have been wondering about.

Thank you, uh, sincerely, anonymous. [[User:Jerry468|Jerry468]] ([[User talk:Jerry468|talk]]) 17:48, 23 August 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Jerry468|Jerry468]] Most of our contributors are from the US, and Rossmann himself is American. But this is a global wiki and we would welcome your contributions, especially in Europe. I think ideally the goal is to have coverage of consumer rights violations everywhere. We just are not yet there. Thanks for signing up! '''''[[User:JackFromWisconsin|📎 JackFromWisconsin]]''''' ([[User_talk:JackFromWisconsin|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/JackFromWisconsin|contribs]]) 18:45, 23 August 2025 (UTC)

==Suggestion: Implementing a /robots.txt page==

[[wikipedia:Robots.txt|Robots.txt]] is a page that's used by web crawlers to set rules, like disallow pages or crawl delay. I just noticed that this [https://consumerrights.wiki/robots.txt page] is missing. Maybe duckduckgo's crawler will finally index this wiki. [[User:Yappermaster69|Yappermaster69]] ([[User talk:Yappermaster69|talk]]) 21:26, 23 August 2025 (UTC)

:I've passed this on to the infra guys! thank you for pointing it out [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 22:19, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

==Suggestion: Consumer Rights Wins==

Hello, I'm a new contributor.

I would like to suggest the creation of a page/category where we can advocate for products/services that are 'consumer rights wins' with repairability or other features that qualify them as a good investment or a not-crappy-capitalist-product.

I don't know whether this already exists or not but I could not find it if it does.

For example:

Framework laptops https://frame.work/: user repairable and expandable to a huge degree with customization.

Epson ink tank printers https://epson.com/ecotank-ink-tank-printers: While the ink tanks do have 'keyed' fill holes, it is far easier to bypass that mechanism than DRM on competitor brand ink cartridges. Even the genuine ink bottles are far cheaper in all metrics, and produce far less environmental waste. According to Epson, a set of black and color bottles (sold for $75.95) replaces approximately 80 cartridges and prints ~6000 pages black and ~5500 pages color. Not having DRM also helps prevent software issues even when using genuine cartridges. [[User:Joe Schmo|Joe Schmo]] ([[User talk:Joe Schmo|talk]]) 16:01, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

:This has been suggested a bit. I think it could be useful to share wins as a result of this wiki or the clippy movement? I believe that sharing general good consumer protection isn't considered in scope here, just to keep this wiki focused on rights violations. '''''[[User:JackFromWisconsin|📎 JackFromWisconsin]]''''' ([[User_talk:JackFromWisconsin|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/JackFromWisconsin|contribs]]) 16:05, 2 September 2025 (UTC)
::I would like to echo the sentiment here from @[[User:Joe Schmo|Joe Schmo]]
::This wiki has all kinds of products to avoid, but I would ''love'' to know which products are well respected from the people who read and contribute to this wiki. I am going to be in the market for a new '''refrigerator''' soon, but the appliance industry is such a minefield of bad products that makes it hard to know what is ''good'' to buy.
::I only know of some places with recommended products to purchase such as r/buyitforlife, Wirecutter, etc, but I am distrustful of those as I think they have been infiltrated by advertisers.
::Of course, some careful attention would have to be made so that certain brands or products aren't ''artificially'' boosted on this wiki as advertising if they aren't rightfully deserved. [[User:Edisondotme|Edisondotme]] ([[User talk:Edisondotme|talk]]) 14:09, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

==Please whitelist creativecommons.org==
I don't know where to ask for this (not Discord for reasons below). Could you please whitelist creativecommons.org? It is clearly not spam.

I quit using Discord the second they demanded my phone number. See also:

*https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord
*https://wowana.me/blog/guess-im-done-with-discord.xht

[[User:JodyBruchonFan|JodyBruchonFan]] ([[User talk:JodyBruchonFan|talk]]) 10:42, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:JodyBruchonFan|JodyBruchonFan]] Have added this to the correct place (click [[Consumer Rights Wiki talk:Moderators' noticeboard#Please whitelist Creative Commons|here]] to find it) and also I’m pretty sure mods want to move from discord and you don’t really need it to talk to mods anyway. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 14:35, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

Consumer Rights Wiki talk:Moderators' noticeboard

2025-09-16T13:47:58Z

Edisondotme: /* Appeal for Protection One home security system irrelevance */ new section

<div style="margin: {{#ifeq:{{{navbox|<noinclude>yes</noinclude>}}}|yes|2px}} 0 0.5em; padding: 0.5em; {{{style|border: 1px solid #A0A5AD;}}} {{{backgroundstyle|background-color: var(--background-color-progressive-subtle, #eaf3ff); color: inherit;}}}">
<div style="padding: 0.25em 0; text-align: center; font-size: 120%; border-radius: 3px; font-weight: bold; {{{titlestyle|background-color: var(--background-color-content-added, #aad1ff); color: inherit;}}}">Welcome — post issues of interest to Moderators</div>
*Post '''appeals''' to article notice templates (e.g. Incomplete, Stub, etc.)
*Post requests for '''moderator action''' here (e.g. blocks)
*Just need a mod? Post here or ping a mod with a question.
*Post any information or news relevant to the moderation team here.
*To request an article to be created, do not post here, try [[Article suggestions]] instead.
*Do not report technical issues here, please use the [[Consumer_Rights_Wiki_talk:Bugs|Bugs noticeboard]] instead.

<div style="padding: 0.25em 0; text-align: center; font-size: 150%; border-radius: 3px; font-weight: bold">[[Special:NewSection/Consumer Rights Wiki talk:Moderators' noticeboard|Start a new section]]</div>
</div>
<br />
{{Archives}} 
==Open tasks==

*[[:Category:Articles with deletion requests]]
*[[:Category:Articles with merge requests]]
*[[:Category:Articles marked as irrelevant]]
*[[Special:NewPages]]

==Should CRW be indexed by search engines?==

Hello, I am writing here as I found a setting in the visual editor if you click those three lines and then ‘advanced settings’, which asks if you want a page to be indexed by search engines. I am sure that this setting is set to default, which means no on all articles (unless this was covered before and i do not know about it). I think this setting could be useful sometimes, but not always, to make the wiki easier to find and not just “I watch Louis Rossman so I know about the CRW!” and also make others learn about this in general. You can probably make a discussion about this if this wasn’t talked about before. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 19:27, 23 August 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]], I did a search (on Google) for "Microsoft consumer rights wiki" and this wiki did come up in the 3rd-4th result. So I am pretty sure this wiki is indexed by search engines. I'll forward this to developers just in case. '''''[[User:JackFromWisconsin|📎 JackFromWisconsin]]''''' ([[User_talk:JackFromWisconsin|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/JackFromWisconsin|contribs]]) 02:17, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:JackFromWisconsin|JackFromWisconsin]] I searched this on Ecosia and I got the same thing too. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 05:52, 24 August 2025 (UTC)
:It appears that only our former wiki's domain, wiki.Rossmanngroup.com, is what is currently indexed on search engines. Tested this on DuckDuckGo. Query: "Nintendo Consumer Rights Wiki" [[User:JamesTDG|JamesTDG]] ([[User talk:JamesTDG|talk]]) 12:55, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:JamesTDG|JamesTDG]] good point. I originally thought it wasn’t indexed because when i went to a newer incident article and tried searching it up, I couldn’t see it come up. I thought the default setting defaulted incident articles to not indexed after i realised other articles were indexed. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 13:06, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

==Remove eff digital fingerprint tool from consumer privacy tools.==

These tools that supposedly tell you your fingerprint are unreliable and are reccomended against in the privacyguides.org forum. They are also not listed on privacyguides.org for this and many other reasons. I think we should try not to clutter the tools section and rely on strong resources like privacyguides.org for their suggestions. [[User:Dentist5735|Dentist5735]] ([[User talk:Dentist5735|talk]]) 00:04, 25 August 2025 (UTC)

:Also a link to the BBB? Seriously? https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/30/news/better-business-bureau/index.html [[User:Dentist5735|Dentist5735]] ([[User talk:Dentist5735|talk]]) 00:12, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
:@[[User:Dentist5735|Dentist5735]] I agree with this -- less clutter is best. I'll wait for others to chime in before making a change however. '''''[[User:JackFromWisconsin|📎 JackFromWisconsin]]''''' ([[User_talk:JackFromWisconsin|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/JackFromWisconsin|contribs]]) 14:54, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::Happy to remove the link to the digital fingerprinting tool as I'd tend to agree that it's handled better elsewhere. I think BBB is still probably worth linking because, while a bit crap at times, it's still a major avenue for reporting consumer issues. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 12:34, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

==Make CRW: Redirects for pages starting with Consumer Rights Wiki:==

Hello. This time I am here as I hate having to write Consumer Rights Wiki: every time I need a page in that section of the wiki. Can we please have redirects to these pages where instead of Consumer Rights Wiki: we can type CRW: sort of like how Wikipedia pages have Wikipedia: and WP: for redirects? Thanks. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 11:26, 25 August 2025 (UTC)

:I can forward that to the developers. Also, you can do Project: as kind of a shortcut already. '''''[[User:JackFromWisconsin|📎 JackFromWisconsin]]''''' ([[User_talk:JackFromWisconsin|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/JackFromWisconsin|contribs]]) 13:19, 25 August 2025 (UTC)
::From what I can tell, it's something that needs to be done on the bakend, so have passed it onto the backend folks. thanks! [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 13:20, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
:::You can do name space redirects, but it’s generally easier for the tech side of people to do it. It’s kind of Janky to do it just through a manual redirect so if we’re gonna do it, it’s better for you to pass it to the tech folks. [[User:Atsumari|Atsumari]] ([[User talk:Atsumari|talk]]) 18:14, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

==Deletion request eRUC NZ 24/7 GPS car surveillance==

Hey guys, this is a serious issue. If the format or section is wrong I'm open to input on what to change or where to repost. Please don't just tear it down and bury this. It's a big deal much worse than most consumer issues.

[[NZ eRUC all-cars 24/7 GPS Surveillance proposal|https://consumerrights.wiki/NZ_eRUC_all-cars_24/7_GPS_Surveillance_proposal]] [[User:FredNZ|FredNZ]] ([[User talk:FredNZ|talk]]) 09:13, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

:Hi @[[User:FredNZ|FredNZ]], read through the [[Consumer Rights Wiki:Style guide|style guide]] and the [[Consumer Rights Wiki:Article types#Incidents|guide on incident pages]]. If you have any more questions that those pages don't answer, please ask. Thanks for making this article and helping to improve it. '''''[[User:JackFromWisconsin|📎 JackFromWisconsin]]''''' ([[User_talk:JackFromWisconsin|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/JackFromWisconsin|contribs]]) 13:53, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

==DCS is an unnecessary disambiguation page==

At [[DCS (disambiguation)]] there is a link to dCS audio ,which doesn’t have an article about it, and Deep Cycle Systems. This means it is useless and isn’t needed. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 07:02, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

:If you wanted to create some of those other pages, even if it’s just basic information, you can do so that way the disambiguation page serves more of a purpose. If you feel we need to remove the page please let us know and we can look into that and tag it properly so that people know to create articles for the pages under it or it will be deleted. [[User:Atsumari|Atsumari]] ([[User talk:Atsumari|talk]]) 18:15, 31 August 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:Atsumari|Atsumari]] I think looking at it there’s a high chance there’ll eventually be one for it in the future. I was just asking if it is relevant but from your post i think it’s fine for it to stay. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 18:17, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

==Inclusion guidelines==

It appears the Inclusion Guidelines article hasn't been updated since May. Since this is a major FAQ for a lot of contributors, as well as important guidelines for what this wiki does (and doesn't) cover, it seems pretty crucial to update this article. It would also help greatly to add it to the Create a Page, How To Help, and other contributor articles. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 12:50, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

:I will certainly make sure to get the other stuff members in on this, It is rather concerning that we haven't updated it for hot minute... [[User:JamesTDG|JamesTDG]] ([[User talk:JamesTDG|talk]]) 12:52, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

==Protect Template:Main Page/Featured==

[[Template:Main Page/Featured]] should be protected to allow only administrators. Autoconfirmed/confirmed users being able to edit this seems like a recipe for disaster, especially as only admins need to edit it. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 14:17, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for letting us know. Should now be fixed. '''''[[User:JackFromWisconsin|📎 JackFromWisconsin]]''''' ([[User_talk:JackFromWisconsin|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/JackFromWisconsin|contribs]]) 14:20, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

==Appeal to Piefed Page Deletion==

Someone has marked the Piefed Page for deletion. What are some improvements that could be made to the article to potentially prevent this outcome?

[[Piefed]] [[User:Fierce|Fierce]] ([[User talk:Fierce|talk]]) 05:19, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

:The easier to deal with issue mentioned in the deletion notice surrounds the fact that the article is quite short, and is not in a standard format for a product article. This is fairly manageable, as it just needs to be reformatted into something more similar to other product articles on the wiki.
:The second issue is trickier: piefed's relevance to consumer protection, and general notability, needs to be justified. This is, I suspect, the main reason why it's being considered for deletion, as the other issue would only really justify a stub notice. We do not intend to have a page for every open source solution out there, and generally the only ones which have a page are very large and relevant ones like GrapheneOS (and even then there's some debate as to whether they fit on the Wiki). I'm not sure that Piefed has really has any notable consumer-related incidents to speak of, and for the page to stay I think you'd need to clearly lay out a case (ideally on its talk page, feel free to reply here or ping me if you do this) for the page's notability. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 10:45, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

=="Despite"==

It seems the word "despite" may be interpreted as inflammatory language. It's much easier to avoid it in the text/body of an article, but with an incident article, how can it be described when the incident in question is blatantly contradictory? i.e. "GoPro advertises waterproof cameras despite design flaw."

My intent is to title the incident as specific and concise as possible, which, something like "GoPro camera waterproof issue" does not do. Same with "Signal data collection" which I had re-titled to "Signal's data collection despite privacy-focused advertising." [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 18:09, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

:Having a look at the article mentioned, I think that it would be an appropriate title if fully supported in the text (the whole article is a bit dubious as it appears to be original research in the sense that the submitting user has drawn inferences from the product spec and warranty language, and there's no evidence of it being picked up by any media outlets or discussed by anyone other than the submitting user. There's also no evidence of an actual design flaw existing - we don't know that the camera is not fine down to 10m, only that the warranty does not fully cover it.)
:Answering the main topic though, if we assume that the article text did fully support the title, I think such a title would be fine. It's certainly a substantial improvement upon where it was before, and like you I can't think of another good way of wording it which is not needlessly unclear or wordy. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 09:58, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

==dark mode on a template's broken==

[[Template:Quote_box]] been a while since it's been broken on dark mode and I reported it on it's discussion page but it's still yet to be fixed on dark mode. In my experiences the problem's rampant on both mobile and desktop. The background of the template stays white but as it's dark mode the text turns white. Which makes the text invisible. [[User:SinexTitan|SinexTitan]] ([[User talk:SinexTitan|talk]]) 18:35, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

:I do see what you mean when I access it on mobile as I live in dark mode. It becomes a white box. I’ll wait for other staff to confirm this, but I believe we need to pass this on to the infrastructure team so a tech can look at it. This might also just be a situation where it’s a known bug with the software, but we will cross the bridge if we get to it. - [[User:Atsumari|Atsumari]] ([[User talk:Atsumari|talk]]) 18:19, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

==Remove the Help: redirects==

There are some help: redirects to articles that were previously moved, like [[Help:Electron]]. Can we finally remove these? [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 08:52, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

:Sure. Deleted the two redirects to mainspace articles. '''''[[User:JackFromWisconsin|📎 JackFromWisconsin]]''''' ([[User_talk:JackFromWisconsin|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/JackFromWisconsin|contribs]]) 16:33, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

==Sandbox is underutilised==

The sandbox for this doesn’t show up anywhere on the interface and is never used. We either utilise it and put it on the interface or do nothing and it just sits there. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 16:18, 31 August 2025 (UTC)

==Fixed the Sengled article page==

I overhauled the article [[Sengled]] a few days ago. Please remove the Sloppy AI tag and change the Incomplete tag to StubNotice (as I believe it still needs more work, but I lack the familiarity to follow through on it). — [[User:Sojourna|Sojourna]] ([[User talk:Sojourna|talk]]) 22:59, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Sojourna|Sojourna]], Thanks for fixing that article. I'm keeping incomplete over stub since it's long enough to be useful, but just not complete. '''''[[User:JackFromWisconsin|📎 JackFromWisconsin]]''''' ([[User_talk:JackFromWisconsin|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/JackFromWisconsin|contribs]]) 23:09, 1 September 2025 (UTC)

==Protect Category:Wiki Root==

I think [[:Category:Wiki root]] and other major categories should be fully protected as confirmed/autoconfirmed users can still move it. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 08:02, 2 September 2025 (UTC)

:Thank you for posting this. If you find other categories that need to be protected, please let us know. I just went ahead and locked the main page for that category. - [[User:Atsumari|Atsumari]] ([[User talk:Atsumari|talk]]) 02:33, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

==Appeal Artificial intelligence deletion==

Somebody proposed deletion of the article for the reason: "Does not pertain directly to consumer rights or violations."

Further, in the discussion it was noted that the article is wordy.

I agree that the article needs significant revision. It has more detail than needed on some areas (e.g. web scraping), and totally misses other important areas.

I think it might be easier to improve the existing article, rather than having to start one from scratch.

I see AI more as a theme/background article. AI is so pervasive now, and affects people in so many ways, that I think it makes sense to have at least one article on it.

Things that I think such an article should cover include:

Data centers - environmental impacts, community impacts, energy demand and subsidy by electricity and water rate payers, and how many of these agreements are made in secret, even in nominally democratic/open governmental systems. In the US data centers are often located in marginalized communities, where people are not as organized to protect their community . (This is not exclusively an AI thing might be worth a separate article about data centers in general, covering crypto mining operations, etc.)

Control of information - Use of LLM in place of search is decimating independent information sources (taking away advertising revenue, taking away views).

Inaccuracy and inappropriate use of LLM. "Hallucinations" People not understanding what an LLM is and assuming they are more capable than they are. LLM make a poor substitute for human written product reviews. (Inaccurate, praises whatever the user wants - even products that don't exist.)

Intellectual property - piracy in training data (using stolen data), use of output.

Privacy and security - data poisoning, ease of subverting guardrails, gathering data for training, revealing prompts, law enforcement review of chatbot prompts and outputs, etc.

Concerns about possible effects on users - AI psychosis, etc.

Labor concerns - conditions of labelers/piece workers.

Liability - LLM are often inaccurate, what happens when the AI harms people (libel, suicide, etc.)

In short, I think there is a lot about LLMs and AI that is important for consumers. I hope the above gives some sense of why. However, I only just started here, and will be careful to read the policies and examples in more detail before editing articles.

I have sources for a bunch of this, will be adding them to the article talk page as time permits. Thank you. [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 18:33, 4 September 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for the heads up. Issue has been addressed in the Discussion page of the article. The notice has been removed [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 21:16, 4 September 2025 (UTC)
:I'd caution here that I think quite a few of the practices listed probably wouldn't be within scope.
:Certainly the following:
:- Labour concerns
:- Intellectual property
:- Control of information/search blocking
:- Environmental/social impact of data centres
:Feel like they're out-of-scope as they concern relationships not relevant to the wiki, between businesses and other businesses/creatives, businesses and their employees/workers, as well as between businesses and the wider environment. To prevent scope creep, we want to keep the wiki focused on the consumer-rights issues.
:And these ones feel like 'edge cases' for relevancy - I'd appreciate some wider input:
:- Possible effects and harm on users from improper function (I'd argue that in a lot of cases there's not much to be done on this front, but I think if insufficient steps are taken to warn and safeguard users, then they could be mentioned. Certainly things like character.ai and similar do feel very exploitative, but I'm not sure I'd bundle the normal assistants under the same umbrella there)
:- Liability (I'd say this can be relevant, but the emphasis should be placed on situations where people create systems using AI that take decisions that really shouldn't be left to AI, and harm consumers that way. This is always going to be a fuzzy line, and I'd expect extensive discussion over it - it feels analogous to the question of 'at what point does someone getting injured by their own chainsaw go from being manufacturer negligence, to user error?')
:More broadly, I think that 'AI' probably isn't the best title for an article, as it's such a wide field. AI technically includes almost anything done by a computer. If we go by dictionary definitions, the computer opponents in old strategy games would count as 'AI'. LLMs, Generative image/video models, and traditional ML stuff like image recognition are all distinct enough, and are related to different issues, that it feels like they'd be better separated into their own articles, rather than bundled.
:I'll also put this on the discussion page of the article, and probably best to move further conversation there [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 09:54, 8 September 2025 (UTC)
::Very fair argument. I was worried that the original article would need to be completely scrapped and redone to be even remotely relevant, but didn't wanna be heavy-handed with it. But it sounds like that's still what might be needed. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 13:41, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

==Louis Rossman and other channels video directory==

Hello, the [[Louis Rossmann - Video Directory]] article and [[Other Channels - Video Directory]] do seem completely irrelevant now but nothing has been said about this from what I can see, so I just want to double check that it is completely unused, and maybe show it is unused as there's nothing on it saying it's unused. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 08:37, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

:Thanks for bringing this up. I do believe that the staff team were actually discussing this, but I don’t recall. I think you need to wait for Keith or someone more informed on this. I just wanted to make sure that you knew staff saw this. - [[User:Atsumari|Atsumari]] ([[User talk:Atsumari|talk]]) 08:49, 7 September 2025 (UTC)
::I'm pretty sure they were phased out a while ago anyway by the [[Article suggestions]] page, but just wanted to check. Thanks! [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 08:54, 7 September 2025 (UTC)
:::IMO I think it could be fine to have them and similar pages (I was thinking of adding one for PIRG's historical consumer-relevant reports, as they seem like a decent collection), but if it's obvious from their edit log that they're not being used, then individual pages could be scrapped. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 09:58, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

==Please whitelist Creative Commons==

Have pinged JodyBruchonFan here, who put this on the main page talk page, where i copy pasted this from.

I don't know where to ask for this (not Discord for reasons below). Could you please whitelist creativecommons.org? It is clearly not spam.

I quit using Discord the second they demanded my phone number. See also:

*https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord
*https://wowana.me/blog/guess-im-done-with-discord.xht

[[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 14:32, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

:That's fair enough - we're aiming to gradually move all of the moderation infrastructure onto the wiki from the discord (with this page being the start of that process) so we do want to make not using the discord fully viable.
:In what context were you having issues with creativecommons? Were you trying to put a link on your user page? If that's the case, then it should work for you now, as I've confirmed you (which also means no more captchas). I'll make a note to whitelist the site though, as it's certainly worth doing.
:@[[User:JodyBruchonFan|JodyBruchonFan]] [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 10:02, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

==MD Health Pathways Automatic Opt In of Taxpayers On Water / Utility Bills Without Consent / Dr. Dirk Perritt / Text a Doc==

Please delete the two earlier pages and retain only the most recent one. Thank you for your kind help. [[User:Soapboxmom|Soapboxmom]] ([[User talk:Soapboxmom|talk]]) 16:42, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

:[[MD Health Pathways automatic opt in of taxpayers on water / utility bills without consent / Dr. Dirk Perritt / Text a Doc]] I've moved the existing article here, if that helps? it might need to be moved again, as the title is quite unclear re. what the incident is about. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 16:49, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

==Quote box is awful on dark mode==
Have removed this as this was talked about before on here. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 20:13, 12 September 2025 (UTC)

==A template for move suggestion?==

I've raised it on the talk page for [[Denuvo Anti-Tamper]], but there is no notice template (to my knowledge) to help bring attention to the topic. — [[User:Sojourna|Sojourna]] ([[User talk:Sojourna|talk]]) 23:34, 12 September 2025 (UTC)

:Not a mod, but I am pretty sure [[Template:MergeRequest]] will do with a link to talk page discussing both of them being merged into that one article. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 08:43, 13 September 2025 (UTC)

=='What CRW is not' article suggestion==

Hi, I don't think this fits into the [[Article suggestions]] page so I am bringing the idea up here. I think that an article specifically for what the Consumer Rights Wiki is not would be good in the help/consumer rights wiki namespace (probably help:) as there are too many articles of yelp reviews with no references or other bad articles published. To mitigate it even more I think it should be even more obvious in the article creation process. It just annoys me that so many articles immediately get deletion requests as they are just messed up so badly. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 10:06, 13 September 2025 (UTC)

:That's technically what the [[Consumer Rights Wiki:Inclusion guidelines|Inclusion Guidelines]] article is for, but that needs to be updated. We're working on it and also working on revisions to the [[Consumer Rights Wiki:Article types|Article Types]] page as well. It's taking some time since this directly relates to the direction and scope of the wiki as a whole, and it requires significant input from @[[User:Keith|Keith]] and other higher level moderators/admins. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 16:10, 13 September 2025 (UTC)
::I knew something similar was made before, I just couldn’t put my finger on it! [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 16:20, 13 September 2025 (UTC)
:::If you feel we should add it somewhere more prominent please feel free to suggest where and we can look into getting it added. - [[User:Atsumari|Atsumari]] ([[User talk:Atsumari|talk]]) 23:24, 14 September 2025 (UTC)
::Yes - I've been a bit slow on that but I'll get back on it! We should be able to get a more thorough set of guidelines out before too long [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 00:07, 15 September 2025 (UTC)

==Addition to the style guide - external linking==

Just posting this here for moderator and editor visibility, I've added a section to the [[Consumer Rights Wiki:Style guide#External links|style guide]] which should give some clarity on external links, and also to start a push for including links to the relevant iFixit pages for products where they come up. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 00:05, 15 September 2025 (UTC)

== Dark Patterns Notices ==

Appeal for the removal of both of the Dark Patterns article notices. [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 07:43, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

== Appeal for Protection One home security system irrelevance ==

Regarding this [[Protection One 320P1 Security System|article]], it was flagged for "irrelevance". I would like to provide information as to how it relates to the mission statement.

Specifically, this falls under # 1 in the New Consumer Protection section:

# Remotely deactivate products you "own" via cloud services.

This home security system does not work unless it can phone home to their centralized services to verify if you still have an active subscription with them. Even though all of my sensors and hardware are still perfectly functional and *capable* of doing their job locally, this system won't work unless I can hook it up to their license verification service. [[User:Edisondotme|Edisondotme]] ([[User talk:Edisondotme|talk]]) 13:47, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

Protection One 320P1 Security System

2025-09-05T20:02:42Z

Edisondotme: Created the first article on this old security system

{{ProductCargo
|Company=Protection One
|ProductLine=320P1
|ReleaseYear=2005
|InProduction=No
|ArticleType=Product
|Logo=proteciton 1 logo.png
|Description=Home security system
}}'''Protection One 320P1 Securuity System''' is a now end-of-life home security system including door and window sensors, glass break sensors, and alarm siren. Protection One was acquired by ADT <ref>{{Cite web |title= |url=https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/02/16/home-security-firm-adt-acquired-apollo-global/80441846/}}</ref>but has since discontinued operation leaving these systems useless.

==Consumer-impact summary==
This product was once able to dial police and fire through copper wire telephone cables. This home security system technically ''should'' be able to function without being connected to the phone system, however the firmware for the control panel will show COMS errors if it cannot reach a phone line. This effectively bricks the security system rendering it useless and consumers are not able to operate it in an "offline" mode.

From the [https://www.manualslib.com/manual/949289/Protection-One-320p1.html product manual], one must "CALL FOR SERVICE" if any of the errors arise from being disconnected. The company doesn't exist and the website no longer works.

=== From the manual ===
<code>COMM. FAILURE</code>

<code>(or FC)Indicates that a failure has occurred in</code>

<code>the telephone communication portion of</code>

<code>your system. CALL FOR SERVICE.</code>

==See also==
{{Ph-C-SA}}

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:{{PAGENAME}}]]

Protection One 320P1 Security System

2025-09-05T19:48:29Z

Edisondotme: Creation for protection 1 security system

{{ProductCargo
|Company=Protection One
|ProductLine=320P1
|ReleaseYear=2005
|InProduction=No
|ArticleType=Product
|Logo=proteciton 1 logo.png
|Description=Home security system
}}
{{Ph-C-Int}}

==Consumer-impact summary==
{{Ph-C-CIS}}

==Incidents==
{{Ph-C-Inc}}
This is a list of all consumer-protection incidents related to this product. Any incidents not mentioned here can be found in the [[:Category:{{PAGENAME}}|{{PAGENAME}} category]].

===Example incident one (''date'')===
{{Main|link to the main CR Wiki article}}
Short summary of the incident (could be the same as the summary preceding the article).
===Example incident two (''date'')===
...

==See also==
{{Ph-C-SA}}

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:{{PAGENAME}}]]

File:ProtectionOne logo.png

2025-09-05T19:44:54Z

Edisondotme: OLD LOGO

OLD LOGO

User:Edisondotme

2025-02-01T22:12:45Z

Edisondotme: Created page with "Hello world, this is my user page"

Hello world, this is my user page